Interview met Sonya Maldar, Winningsindustrieën Beleidsmedewerker voor CAFOD
Introductie:
Sonya Maldar of the Catholic Agency for Overseas Development (CAFOD) discusses CAFOD’s recent campaign, focusing on the retail jewellers and the challenge eliminating dirty gold from the jewelry supply chain.
By Greg Valerio
(Greg Valerio is a fair trade jewellery campaigner. He is the founder of CRED the fair trade jewellery brand and a founding board member of Alliance for Responsible Mining. He is also a staff writer for this publication.)
This interview took place on 29th July, 2009.
Greg Valerio, fair trade jewellery activist and staff writer, conducted the interview.
GV: Thank you for agreeing to talk to me. Would you introduce yourself and also what you do?
Sonya: I am the policy analyst for CAFOD who are the official development agency for the Catholic Church in England and Wales. What CAFOD does is work with partners in developing countries by providing long-term development assistance, as well as emergency relief in humanitarian crisis and we campaign and lobby to tackle some of the root causes of poverty throughout our world.
GV: That all sounds like fantastic work but why would a jeweller be talking to a development agency?
Sonya: In 2006 CAFOD launched the Unearth Justice campaign, because what we found was that a number of the partners we work with in Asia, Africa and Latin America where suffering from some of the harmful consequences of gold mining. The idea behind the campaign was to highlight these problems and the negative impact on communities and the environment. Also to try to influence the policy and practice of the industry so the poor are benefiting rather than suffering from gold mining.
We know that 70% of new gold comes from developing countries and we’ve seen in our work, serious cases of pollution by gold mining. You will be aware of the statistic that one gold ring creates 18 tonnes of waste, we’ve seen people forced from their homes, to make way for gold mines and we feel that things need to change in the industry to stop these negative things from occurring.
GV: So why does your campaign target retail jewellers? A lot of what you have described to me is mostly focused on the extractive side of the industry. Why hit the jewellers’ as they are not mining companies? Most jewellers are little guys just trying to make a living.
Sonya: Let me give you an overview as well as what we are doing with the jewellers. Firstly we are trying to raise awareness of these problems. When we first started most people did not know what was going on in gold mining, we are trying to get information out into the public domain. Also in the countries were we work, we are supporting the communities affected by gold mining, empowering them in dialogue with mining companies and helping in their lobby work. We are also talking to industry and government. When I say industry we mean the mining side and the jewellery industry.
So what we have been doing with the retailers is raising awareness, because when we started the campaign, not many of the mainstream jewellers were aware of the issues surrounding gold mining. So we are not targeting jewellers in an expose’ campaign sort of way, that’s not how CAFOD works, we want constructive engagement with the industry. So we raise awareness with jewellers, asking them to publicly endorse the 12 Golden Rules and trying to support jewellers who are genuinely wanting to end harmful practices in gold mining and to strengthen their voice within the industry. There are lots of players in this industry and we think the stronger the jewellers can be the more chance we have of influencing the industry as whole.
GV: Do you really think that independent jewellers are going to be able to influence how a mining company works in central Africa, bij voorbeeld?
Sonya: I do not think it will be an easy thing to do and I think that many of the jewellers believe they are just one small part of this huge industry. So we are supporting them in making their voice heard and also encourage them to take collective action on where they buy their gold. I think this is the root of the problem as the biggest difficulty we face is the lack of transparency within the gold supply chain.
GV: Actually I wanted to talk to you about that. I know CAFOD are big supporters of The No Dirty Gold Campaign. The current headline there is “Leading Jewellers from the UK say no to dirty gold from Alaskan Mine” which is this Pebble Mine in the Bristol Bay area that has been proposed by Anglo-American. All this is fine in and of itself, however Anglo-American won’t care about this as they know there is no transparency in the supply chain. So as a jeweller, what guarantees do I have that the gold in my jewellery has not come from the Pebble Mine in the Bristol Bay area? If as you say there is no physical traceability in the supply chain, it’s a nonsense headline surely.
Sonya: I agree that is one of our biggest challenges and although CAFOD has not been involved in that particular campaign around the Bristol Bay mine, but you are right that is the challenge and the obstacle that we face because it means that jewellers do not know where their gold is coming from and therefore that the consumer does not know either.
As a consumer, I do not want to think that the ring or jewellery that I am buying has caused harm to people or the environment, so the traceability issue is absolutely key. And this is the responsibility of the industry as a whole. We do not have all the answers here but we do need the industry to come together to begin to answer these very real questions.
GV: And do you think it is doing that. Is the industry responding to the challenge?
Sonya: Goed, I think there are some initiatives out there, but at the moment I would say we have yet to see the results of those initiatives. It is hard for me to say at the moment how they are going to bring about that traceability within the supply chain. The good news is around some of the work on fair trade gold, because that is the only initiate that offers traceability from mine to the shop that will then give consumers, jewellers and retailers a real choice. And it will also directly improve the lives of the small-scale miners who are digging the gold. But we also have to look at the impact of the large-scale mining industry and that is where I see there is a lot of room for improvement on the traceability issue.
GV: How are you finding the large-scale miners responding to the issue of traceability? Are they open, are they closed, do they even see it as an issue?
Sonya: You will have heard of the RJC who have been set up to promote responsible practice across the supply chain. It is an industry body and at the moment The Council is not looking at this issue of traceability and this is one of the concerns we have with the work that they are doing.
GV: So why do you think this is? If the issue of physical traceability is so important why are they not doing anything about it? When you ask them what do they say?
Sonya: Well the answer we always get is it is an ‘anti trust issue.’ But we cannot really understand why as this is in the interests of everyone to have a chain of custody system on the gold to ensure and guarantee that the gold you are buying is not harming communities or the environment. It’s in the interests of the industry to make this work, but maybe that’s something that you could ask them that very same question.
GV: Very good, I will I promise. Hoe dan ook, are you as CAFOD, effectively calling for a Kimberley-proces in Gold as we have seen in diamonds? The Kimberley Process is a system that offers some form of physical traceability in diamonds up and to a point, it’s not perfect but it’s a start. Is that something that you are looking for?
Sonya: Well the thing we are looking for is a system in the gold industry that ensures that the standards that the industry uses actually meet the golden rules as these are the principles that outline what responsible gold mining looks like. So we think this is the absolute minimum that should be adopted.
GV: But do the Golden Rules insist on this physical traceability?
Sonya: Well the second thing that we would say is that there needs to be that traceability and then the whole system needs to be certified by a third party to ensure that independent guarantee, so those are some of the key issues to us. But also that needs to be negotiated by a multi-stakeholder group, which is different from what the RJC are doing. They are an industry body so that means there is not a seat at the table for civil society groups like NGO’s, trade unions and communities effected by mining and this means that there will be less credibility to the standards that they produce. To have the best possible standards, you need to have the benefits of all voices in a multi-stakeholder group.
GV: From where I sit, this is one of the difficulties that I have with a lot of the campaigning that is going on. Its just so complicated for a jeweller in the UK or USA who is a high street mom & pop shop who is facing a global recession to access the debate. These are the majority of the trade. So multi-stakeholder processes, physical traceability in gold, Responsible Jewellery Raad, big mining companies and their environmental impact, it’s just emotionally exhausting and completely impossible to access. So how do you make it simple?
Sonya: I think there are two things; you need the industry leaders and the big companies that will drive it forward from their side and thereby create the ripple effect throughout the rest of the industry and the smaller initiatives like what is happening with fair trade as it is a way for smaller jewellers to access gold that meets ethical criteria. It’s a combination of approaches that will need to happen.
GV: So you engage with RJC, so as someone sitting from outside the industry how responsive are they?
Sonya: Well we have been trying to engage them since 2006, and we have made various submissions to their consultations on various standards, but that is very different to NGO’s having a seat at the table, so we think that it is good that they are happy to talk to us but so far their standards are not finished yet. We will see what their mining standards will be, but so far we have not seen any of our concerns taken on board by the council. But as yet they have not finalized their fair mining standards, so we live in hope that they will take on board some of our key concerns. So that is our challenge to them, to actually take on board our concerns
GV: And your principle concerns are?
Sonya: That it’s not a multi-stakeholder initiative
GV: So it’s how they govern themselves?
Sonya: Ja, that’s the first one, the second is the actual content of the standards as they need to meet the golden rules and third, having a third party verification system.
GV: But they are claiming that they will be having independent auditors come in and certify against their system.
Sonya: Ja, but that is different from having a multi-stakeholder group design those standards in the first place because what is actually happening is that it is a self-certification system the industry has designed itself. While they may get independent auditors in to check them, but because the standards have not been designed through a multi-stakeholder process they…
GV: Are you being polite here Sonya?
Sonya: Goed, what I am saying is that their system is not third party. We can debate the technicalities but for it to be truly third party, we would need it to be, standards devised through a multi-stakeholder process, and then independently verified through auditors. What they have done is get the auditors but they are inspecting standards that have only been created by the industry itself.
GV: Moving on a little, you have been engaging with them since 2006 and reading in between the lines, you sound like your very frustrated with progress. Why do you bother with them? Why not take another strategy to achieve your objectives?
Sonya: Goed, there is another strategy that is a multi-stakeholder initiative called, The Initiative for Responsible Mining Assurance (IRMA), which I assume you have heard of? This is very different from the RJC as it involves parties from all the different sectors, so jewellers, trade unions, gemeenschappen, NGOs and mining companies and we think that because all those groups are involved it will mean that the standards are more credible, and it will adopt a third party verification system as well.
GV: It sounds like a fair trade model to me.
Sonya: Goed, it’s not going to be at the moment, but what IRMA is doing is certifying at the mine site, so that means you would know what mines have certain standards and therefore will offer jewellers and suppliers some kind of opportunity to make a choice where they get their gold from. Now of course there is the issue of physical traceability…
GV: If this is such a big issue, how is IRMA addressing the issue of physical traceability?
Sonya: Well we can only take one step at a time and we think getting certification at the mine site is the crucial first step and of course the NGO’s don’t have all the answers here and we are looking to industry to move on this issue of traceability. As we said, it is ultimately in the interest of the industry to get traceability.
GV: That’s sounds encouraging. It seems like IRMA may be a slightly more progressive step than where RJC are at currently, but a critical question is where are the politicians on this, the people that make the rules, are they engaging, is there active political engagement here?
Sonya: As I said the process involves, NGO’s, gemeenschappen, industry, jewellers, but at the moment it does not involve politician representing any governments.
GV: Don’t you think that is a critical part of a multi-stakeholder process? The next step in what should happen?
Sonya: I think if you have the political will of the mining companies and they want higher standards at the mine site, they are the ones who are ultimately responsible for what happens at their mine. So if we have those involved we should get a real chance at improving the mining situation.
GV: I think we all know that in real terms that does not work in practice. I remember being in Tanzania in 2006 and talking to a junior environmental minister, and he was scared as hell at challenging this multi national mining company on their environmental record because he knew if he did he would lose his job. He had the authority to inspect but knew the system would not back him if he did so.
Sonya: Well what I would say to that is that IRMA is a voluntary initiative and voluntary processes are on their own are not going to be enough. This is in fact some of the other work that CAFOD are doing, looking at some of the more broader regulatory frameworks that need to be in place to manage some of the positive and negative impacts when big businesses operate overseas. We think we need a combination of measures because you are right, developing nation governments are often in a weak position when it comes to negotiating with large companies. The power imbalance can be huge but also there are actions that they themselves take that can contribute to the negative impacts.
GV: Ok moving on, World Gold Council. Where are they at on all this?
Sonya: To be honest, Greg, we have not had much dealings with the WGC. We will try to engage with individual companies and through some of these processes, but we have had no contact with them. Have you?
GV: Some, but I’m remaining silent on that as it’s not my interview. What I am interested in though is, a lot of companies that CAFOD and No Dirty Gold talk about are stock market listed companies, and I wonder whether this is the biggest accountability that a listed company has is to its shareholders. Are you doing anything in that area? Where are the pension funds in all this, as they are the big investors in these companies?
Sonya: Zeker, we are raising awareness on financial transparency, you may of heard of ‘Publish What You Pay’, and we are members of that. That looks at publishing what is paid to governments by extractive industries to stop corruption. And one of the calls of that campaign is what are the mandatory requirements you can put to ensure disclosure of payments. So one of the ways we could work is through the stock market to require all companies that are listed; lets say in the London Exchange, to disclose their payments to overseas governments to improve transparency and stop corruption. So yes we are looking at some of these strategies more generally.
GV: You know this is for me is a big problem. The disconnect. Most of what we have discussed is all about the mining companies, and for the sake of this discussion we are talking about gold. Yet most of this product ends up with the jeweller, yet they are hardly ever mentioned in the discussion, in fact they are not even in the focus or in the picture. The mining industry is run by technocrats, bureaucrats, economists and engineers, they know nothing of jewellery or the high street realities as far as I can see.
Sonya: That’s where some of the trade associations should come into play and I think that the jewellery industry should be represented in these discussions. Daarom, jewellers should be putting pressure on their Trade Associations to make sure they are being represented in these debates. This is why they exist to advance the jeweller’s interests in these forums.
GV: So what do you think success looks like for you?
Sonya: For us, we are looking at how communities are impacted by mining, so a success for us would be if poor communities that live next to a gold mine are actually benefiting from the mine being there, which will mean that mine working to the highest social & environmental standards such as; no pollution of their water, they have free access to the land, they are not thrown out of their homes, these are some of the real tangible benefits for us being involved in this work and why we are doing it.
GV: Dus, who are the good guys and who are the bad guys?
Sonya: You can’t ask me that; you are very naughty and I don’t think it is a simple as that.
GV: Ok, who is darker and who is lighter then?
Sonya: I don’t even think it’s as easy at that, basically there are those companies who are committed to a multi-stakeholder process and there are those that are not.
GV: Can you name a few?
Sonya: Well the ones who are in the IRMA process are Rio Tinto, Newmont and Anglo American and for us that commitment to work with us is very encouraging, but there is still a long, long way to go. It really is not as easy to say who are good and who are bad, it’s a long and complicated process and we will see over time and there is no easy answer to this.
GV: Is IRMA only focusing on large scale mining? As I have heard nothing in this discussion about the small-scale miners who are the majority around the world.
Sonya: Goed, I have mentioned we are supportive of what is happening in fair trade and if you are talking about good guys vs bad guys, the work that ARM is doing with small scale mining is really, really interesting and it does offer a real alternative that will ensure traceability and CAFOD are very supportive of that process.
I do want to emphasize that the voluntary initiatives like IRMA and RJC are not going to be sufficient in and of themselves, so we will need the governments to get involved as well.
GV: Do you think this is the next evolution of the campaign, to begin to talk to the governments and get them on board?
Sonya: Goed, we are already doing that to a degree by talking to our UK Government here, there are a number of UN processes that are looking at the role of business on human rights so we are doing that work, but it applies to business as a whole not exclusively to the mining industry, but time and time again the examples and case studies of bad practice are coming out of the extractive industries sector. So we are looking at it at on all levels.
GV: Sonya thanks for taking the time to talk to me and I wish you well in your work.
For more information visit;
CAFOD – http://www.cafod.org.uk/unearthjustice
No Dirty Gold – http://www.nodirtygold.org
RJC – http://www.responsiblejewellery.com
IRMA – http://www.responsiblemining.net
ARM – http://www.communitymining.org
Fair Trade – http://www.fairtrade.net/setting_the_standards.html
Publish what you Pay – http://www.publishwhatyoupay.org/
World Gold Council – http://www.gold.org/
